My curiousity lies in why you feel the need to publish this much information that negatively reflects on the church?
Because it's not generally available elsewhere.
I am genuinely curious about what motivates you to spend so much time investigating a religion you do not support or intellectually agree with?
Because I spent a lot of time as a believer, so I felt the need to make up for lost time by investigating "the other side of the coin."
Was there a moment in your life that changed your mind?
No, not a single moment. It was a long, painful process that lasted roughly six months.
Or maybe you were horribly offended by someone or something related to the church.
No, I wasn't.
I have met people before who seem much like you but choose to share their opinions when asked....instead of shouting them out at anyone who may search for some information on mormonism.
I don't "shout" anything out either. If people don't want to read my site, they can easily hit the "Back" button.
The Hofmann letters did nothing to the church. Consider this: wouldn't you be even more suspicious if the Prophet had stated that they were fake?
Not at all.
If they did, critics would then claim that the church was trying to run and hide from the documents for fear of the church being proven false.
How do you figure, since the documents were, in fact, false?
God doesn't have to reveal the truth on every single scam done to the church. Sometimes he just lets these things run it course and die out. No harm done. So I don't see the big deal.
If you consider the death of two innocent people to be "no harm done" and not a "big deal," then nothing I can say will persuade you otherwise.
Exchange #2
I was referring to no harm done to the church as a whole. . . In the case of the two murders, God obviously didn't stop Mark from doing it because God had to allow him to commit sin in order to judge him ccordingly.
So you're saying that there's no point to "the spirit of discernment?"
God new that no harm would be done to the church as a whole so why should he reveal it to His prophets when he already knew what was going to to place anyway? Maybe to keep Mark from continuing on with his forgeries and killing two people, yes, but like I said, God did not intervene in this matter because He had to let Mark choose what the outcome of his life would be. If He had revealed the truth to the church from the beginning, maybe Mark would have quit alltogether. But He allowed Mark to continue on with his false claims in order to judge him justly.
Hmm, that sounds like an excuse that can be used by anyone--prophet or not.
I'd love to know what religion you currently ascribe to, if any.
I have joined none of them, for they are all wrong.
You sadly seem to be one of "those types" who must have physical proof of something, or must be able to make logical connections between everything in order to have faith.
No, I just can't have faith in something which all the evidence is against. If one does so, then faith becomes ones' enemy, not one's friend.
That is against the inherent nature OF faith. As the fulness of the gospel continued to emerge, things were changed. They were not changed by mortal men, but by our Heavenly Father, who had the course of the Church and all such changes planned before you or I were ever thought of.
Changes are one thing. Lies and deceit are something else entirely.
Dear I stubeled into your web site and read your personal story. I felt sorry you still have not discovered the problem you seam to have. You see when you wear a member of the church you had a problem. And now that you left the church you are still carrying the same problem with you. The problem is you have a dominant personality. Some times referred to as a red personality. This type of personality can ether really help a person out or hinder them their whole life.
When you wear a member you knew the answers to all the questions. You know the answers I am talking about . The same ones we hear again and again in priesthood meeting. I sit back and wonder which one of the know it all’s. In the meeting is going to repeat the same answer ive, heard to the same question ive heard over and over again. Every one in the room knows the answer but we sit around whating for one of these red personalities to talk down to us and display his all knowing answers to the same old questions. On your mission it was probably your whole goal in life to obtain some type of a leadership position. [Actually, nothing could be further from the truth. During one interview with the Mission President, I actually requested that he never make me a District Leader, Zone Leader, or A.P. I just didn't want to deal with all the additional headaches. So his assessment is way off.] Your probably a vary competitive person. If you don’t believe me ask some of the people around you. I’m sure if you don’t dominate them when asking they will clue you in.
Now that you’re an anti Mormon nothing has changed. You still know all the answers to the hard qwetions. The only thing that has changed is your answers. Your still smarter then everyone else just like before. I’m still siting back reading the same things all the other anti Mormons write. It kind of reminds me of being back in preastood meeting again whating for another know it all to repeat the same old things. Never really thinking for themselves but just repeating things they have read in books. You have probably studied very hard first to learn all the ins and outs of Mormonism. And then to dig up all the history and so forth that anti Mormons rely on. Well done.
However you are still missing the big picture. The onset ether for or against has little or knows value to a big group of people. I or they would not follow or believe you know matter which answers you wear giving, whether I or they agreed with you or not. To me its not the answers that are important it’s the persons true intentions. [In that case, no wonder cultish groups are so successful!] A lot of Mormons just want your vote and to rule over you. Its very important to them that in your mind they are better and smarter then you are. Evan a lot of bishops. And especially a lot of elders quorum presidents. Its kind of like going back to high school they just want your vote and really don’t care about you.
This is the very thing you have become disappointed with. Be honest you wear one of these and when you became disappointed you just switched teams. You are still looking for people to look up to you for your superior knowledge. This is your intention. On the other hand lets take Hinkleys intentions. From some one on the sidelines looking in I see know Ill intentions.
You complained about tithing and time given to church callings. This shows me you wear not giving your time and tithing for the good of others and god but for yourself. Other wise you would not be complaining or regretting giving them Evan if you did think the church was not true. You will not be happy Intel you change what you truly desire. For these same problems exist in all religions and in society. To show this all you have to do is to think back to high school. It was the same.
If you think 0f the history of man and the total numbers that have went before us a smart person would come to the conclusion that most of what god wants us to learn and gain would not require a religion. However I think that most of them Help people to live a better quality of life. And that’s a good thing. All religions would teach of giving time and money. It’s a good thing it makes one unselfish. No matter what religion. You are really critical of Mormon leaders. Which makes me wonder if you have ever read the Old Testament. Between Lot Samson, King David, and Noah. Can you Evan imagine the anti literature that could have been written about these profits in their day?
Mormonism is the only religion I know of where every one except for a handful of people are going to some sort of heaven. And a smart person would look at the history of man and say that sound like it should be. But I am sure you have now found the true church wear you and a select number of true followers will all go to heaven.
So, did you find any mistakes on my site?
You claim to no longer "intellectually identify" with the Mormon religion. And which religion, may I ask do you "intellectually identify" with?
I have joined none of them, for they are all wrong.
I may not be the most devote member of the LDS church, I'm certainly not the most knowledgeable, but I will tell you this, God is above man, so it's absurd to try to intellectualize something so far above our understanding.
But there's no problem with intellectualizing something that is within our understanding.
However, if this helps you get up in the morning and helps rationalize this slanderous website then by all means continue.
Slanderous? Hardly. If that's honestly what you think, then please cite the specific portions which you think are "slanderous."
We all have hobbies, however dangerous they are. Some people bungee jump, some sky dive others play Russian Roulette and you my friend say that you have any real knowledge of the LDS religion. Oh wait, my mistake, you "understand the Mormon religion". Tell me please, how often did you bear your testimony in church?
I don't have enough fingers to count all the times. And that doesn't include all the times I did so on my mission.
How many times did you do baptisms for the dead?
Once.
How many times did you have the Holy Ghost bear witness to you that the Church was true?
Never.
Now on to your lovely description of Mark Hoffman. You say he was only trying to show the world that there were black marks upon the Church's history that the Elders tried to whitewash over. Well, that may be, however, that can be said for many religions.
So why not join them instead of Mormonism?
But what Mark Hoffman did was an abomination. What no one has stopped to consider is that it is even said that God''s greatest prophets of all times have lost faith at one point or another, or that they have faced adversities that have tried and tested their faith. So why is it so hard to believe that the Elders of the Church had come across such a trial, and while they apparently let their fear guide them, it does not say anything less for their ability to discern.
I'd say that letting their fear guide them--as opposed to their discernment--is an enormous "red flag."
And you sir, if you would be so kind, would be doing the rest of us a favor to have your name removed from the Church records.
How does my name on the records make you, personally, any worse off?
The last thing we need is more fallen members who were to lazy to get back up so they turn to "intellectualizing" the Church instead.
So anyone who leaves your church is "lazy." I guess that means that everyone who leaves their old religion after meeting the missionaries is likewise "lazy" too, right?
So please, before you print your next report, finding or whatever you want to call it, talk to a bishop in your area and ask to be excommunicated from the Church.
No, I wouldn't ask to be excommunicated. The most I would do is ask to have my name removed from the records.
You don't want to be here and all you are doing is bringing harm.
Since when do facts bring any harm?
You don't believe, fine that's your decision, but you aren't doing anyone any favors by posting this nonsense or by using Church doctrine and twisting it to fit your point of view.
I twist nothing. If you believe I do, then please point out precisely where.
I don't wish to be rude, I apologize if anything in this letter offends you, but frankly I was deeply offended by your remarks and before you tell me "then you shouldn't have come here" I was looking for information on the Salt Lake City Bombings and Mark Hoffman's atrocities.
Congratulations! You certainly came to the right place.
But as I said, I apologize if you found this letter offensive and should you choose to enlighten others about any other subject I wish you all the best and would most likely read and enjoy what you have to say.
Why any other subject except Mormonism? Since when did your particular religious sect get a "free pass" from scrutiny?
I find that your limited intellect alone (we all have limits) is all you share on your website. My mind was not openned. My understanding was not increased. I only feel sorry for your soul brother. I am no brain...please don't think I am professing that. I just cannot believe that you can begin to believe or expect others to believe this. Simply open the pages of the BOM and feel the truth open your mind. Compare the words of Joseph Smith next to yours and the difference is plain and seen by the natural eye as well as the spiritual.
Perhaps, but feelings are the most easily manipulated things on earth. Facts are far more reliable.
Take care and may God bless your life with what you stand in need of. I pray for this. I also pray that I will be ready to share the gospel with those who read this stuff and come to me for answers. I meet a few of them and they are usually ready for baptism. So in some ways I appreciate your efforts.
In that case, I'm sure you won't mind giving my website out to anyone who's interested in learning about Mormonism. Thank you.
first if you don't mind i'm wondering whether you stopped being a mormon because of doctrinal disagreements or because you sinned and felt like the rebuke you received was unjustified.
Doctrinal disagreements.
next, im wondering what type of doctor you are, if you mention in your website forgive me for asking, you just have so much to read that i just don't have time for it all.
I'm not a real doctor. "Dr. Shades" is just a 'net-nickname. I rather regret choosing it now, since some people are assuming that that's my real title.
i find it interesting that you have devoted so much time to try to tear something down that helps so many people to be better; better citizens, better friends and so forth.
I'm not "tearing anything down." The LDS Church is far too wealthy to be torn down. I'm simply sharing information that isn't readily available from normal church channels.
i assume that you consider yourself spiritually enlightened and that you now wish to "enlighten" others concerning the "fraudulent" nature of the mormon doctrine, but it just seems to me that your time might be better spent searching for the truth rather than dwelling on past "mistakes".
That's exactly what I'm doing, searching for the truth behind Mormonism. I care nothing about past "mistakes."
that only leads me to believe that you hold a grudge and are now trying to get back at the mormons perhaps for teaching you "false" doctrine for so long, or more likely for living the sinners life and being subsequently reprimanded.
No, I just want to save others time by providing them with information that I would've liked to have had.
i know of no mormon who practices what he preaches and at the same time, not a good person, so if you are unable to direct people to the truth, to a way of life that will help them to be better and kinder and truer, then stop trying to lead people away from a way of life that will.
So in your opinion, there are some cases [in] which people should be protected from the truth?
ah shucks, i just can't hold it in any longer, im a mormon.
That much was obvious.
i was born a latter-day saint and ive remained one for the past 24 years. ive read probably the same anti-mormon literature that im sure you did and im happy to say that the attempts to twist the truth by so many retired mormons didn't affect me like it apparently affected you.
The twisted truths don't affect me either. It's only the straightforward truths that I pay attention to.
for ex-mormons or rather ex-Christians (we all know that the mormon Christ is the true Christ) it would be better for them to never have had the spirit (as we learn in scriptures) because once theyve had the spirit and then willfully given it up, they become hardened and guided in thought and action by the opposing spirit.
That applies only if Mormonism is somehow true. If it's false, then what you wrote doesn't amount to a hill of beans, now does it?
come on dr shades, is creating an entire web-site to tell the world that you don't believe in mormonism any more the act of a rational mind.
Is sending me an e-mail telling me that you believe the act of a rational mind?
im not going to argue doctrine with you, ive read all of the books and i know that its all true, and youve obviously convinced yourself that it isnt, so it would be pointless to go in that direction. don't get me wrong, id love you for you to try to argue doctrine with me but youd lose and it would be embarrassing for you cause you see, my testimony was built on the logic of the mormon doctrine, . . .
Isn't that an oxymoron?
. . . the witness of the spirit came much later. on your website your attempts at disproving the doctrine are humorous, especially in regards to the book of mormon, . . .
In what way were they humorous?
. . . i may have no physical proof that it is scripture inspired by God but you can search your entire life and you'll never find a single thing to prove that it isn't. but parsimoniously speaking dr shades, the church is true.
Actually, parsimoniously it is false. Take the Book of Abraham, for example.
im sorry for your loss, God loves you anyways and so do i, we just don't love what you do!
What is it I do that you don't like? Making uncomfortable information available, perhaps?
I'M SO DAMN GLAD YOU THINK YOU ARE ABOVE EVERYONE ELSE, MISTER HIGH AND MIGHTY MISTER PERFECT. HA.
What makes you think that I believe I am "above" anyone, much less "everyone else?"
Exchange #2
Your webpage.
Where on my webpage did I say that I believe I am "above" anyone?
I find your website very comical and typical of an individual who lives in or whose social environment stifles any rational thought. Maybe you'll grow out of it some day and learn to think for yourself.
Let's drop the insults and cut to the chase: Did you find any mistakes on my site? If not, then why did you bother e-mailing me?
I read through your website and with all do respect for such a brilliant man you really have wasted your mind for contention. I have read the Book of Mormon and at the age of fifteen even I have a better understanding than you do because I am a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. First of all, the book of Mormon has never been changed, and Joseph Smith was fourteen when he saw his vision of the Father and Christ. He was in his fifteenth year, which means he was fourteen. Did you ever think maybe that these were coincidences of God and not Joseph? It's also a coincidence that Joseph from the bible has the same name. According to you that means the bible must not be true, but it is true. Please don't contradict yourself. Joseph never used sorceries neither did the prophets of old. The power was not there own. This was only the power of god the priesthood in our church. As long as they had faith god protected them from persecution. Did Moses not use this same power? the very power of our heavenly father? Please don't say the bible isn't true. The only reason it seems like a coincidence is because this is what happens when one person must stand and preach in a multitude of evil. Are you also saying that Jesus and his disciples were not persecuted for their beliefs? Another point is that Moroni did not just burry treasure, he buried what Joseph was to later did up. You see? There is a connection, but not how you understand it. Joseph smith could not touch the holy things of the past until he learned to be a prophet of God. If there is any other misunderstandings I'll ask you to first read the Book of Mormon. You should find your answer. If not ask me or another member of our church. we can help you with your misunderstanding. Until then, I ask on behalf of my church that you don't continue that site. It is only a way to cause contention. In our church we do not believe in causing contention. The Book of Mormon teaches us that contention is of the devil. That is why you will not see a Mormon putting up a website about other religions and how they cannot be true. We only teach so others can know in their mind and in their heart the full gospel of Jesus Christ that was lost so many years ago. Joseph Smith died protecting the scriptures that were written by the prophets of old. If you honestly believe that Joseph dug up treasure then you already believe that he dug up the brass plates and translated them into the book of Mormon. He also dug up the sword of Laban the Leahona and the Urum and Thumum. I challenge you to read the book of Mormon and not to let pride stand in the way of you understanding what the Latter Day Saints of today really believe. Please don't hesitate to e-mail me back and discontinue your life spent on disproving Mormonism. If you don't, then at least read more about us because your information is not accurate. Mormons know more about Mormons then Anti-Mormons.
[It's hard to argue with the logic of a 15 year-old, isn't it?]